The Oral Talmud: Episode 21: Dissecting Daf Yomi with Ilana Kurshan

SHOW NOTES
“Part of what I love about Talmud is that even if you're just listening, there's so many gaps, so many rough edges, so many places that don't quite fit together. There're all these holes and you, the reader, burrow into those holes. You find your nook, your cranny, your space, your neek’rat ha’tzur. And it's the nature of the discourse that has you do that. I don't think it's possible to learn this text passively!”  - Ilana Kurshan

Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today. 

This week Dan & Benay learn with special guest Ilana Kurshan, author of the award-winning “If All the Seas Were Ink: A Memoir” (2017) through the lens of Daf Yomi, the practice of studying a whole page of Talmud each day. Ilana Kurshan has worked in literary publishing both in New York and in Jerusalem as a translator and foreign rights agent, and as the books editor of Lilith Magazine. Since our interview, she has published, “Children of the Book: A Memoir of Reading Together” (2025) about raising kids and a love of books.

Long-time listeners of The Oral Talmud will have picked up on split opinions between Dan & and Benay regarding the practice of Daf Yomi, and Ilana joins perfectly suited to plead the case for this fast-paced daily learning! What’s at stake in different methods of Talmud study? How can a reader avoid giving up when the Talmud gets boring? How can we find additional excitement when starting a new masechet (tractate/volume)? What are the unique benefits and spiritual opportunities of Daf Yomi? What happens when we bring our own literary and background interests as lenses to Talmud? And, in the end, how can we avoid a passive learning position in Daf Yomi (or in any method of study) and always ensure that our learning is empowering?

For this episode, we’d like to remind listeners, that every episode exists as an unedited video recording from our first broadcast in 2020. Ilana is a very animated guest! (Find this episode by scrolling to the bottom of the page)

Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of this website.

Further Learning

[1] Ilana Kurshan’s website where you can find her books and appearances.

[2] Daf Yomi has been in cycle since 1923/5683, more on the origins at Wikipedia

[3] “Shnayim SheHem Arbah/Two That Are Four” as an example of Talmud categorization, found on Shabbat 2a

[4] “Marginalia” by Billy Collins (read with annotations on Genius)

[5] Martin Luther’s 95 Theses (on Wikipedia)

[6] The Concorde Fallacy aka Sunk Cost (on Wikipedia)

[7] Dvrei Elohim Hayyim “Words of the Living God” a reference to Eruvin 13b, Listen to “The Oral Talmud: Episode 19 - The Eilu v’Eilu Episode”

[8] The Story of the Man Whose Tzitzit Hit Him in The Face When He Visits a Sex Worker is on Menachot 44a

[9] For “Har Sinai is standing over my head like a bucket” (Shabbat 88) listen to “The Oral Talmud: Episode 2: Voiding the Torah”

[10] Pinchas Kehati wrote a much loved commentary on the Mishnah (Wikipedia bio)

[11] For “Rabbi Elazar’s Cow” listen to “The Oral Talmud: Episode 10 - The Obligation to Protest (Shabbat 54b-55a)”

[12] For a compelling discussion of the risk of snakes drinking from water (and wine) left uncovered overnight, explore Avodah Zarah 30a

[13] The discussion on mechol ha’kerem and karachat ha’kerem, “that a vineyard has a dance around it and a bald spot” is on Eruvin 3b

[14] On the subject of the Chronicles of Narnia, the article “Why There Is No Jewish Narnia” by Michael Weingrad (2010, on Jewish Review of Books)

[15] Tzurat Ha’Petach “The Form of a Doorway” may be found from the first Mishnah of Masechet Eruvin (2a)

[16] The poet Rainer Maria Rilke’s biography on Wikipedia

[17] Demons appear in Talmud as early as Berakhot 3a in the first volume of Talmud

[18] The metaphor involving the Altar of Gold, Mizbe’ach Zahav (like the icing on the cake) is on Eruvin 19a

[19] For Moshe/Moses in Rabbi Akiva’s classroom, listen to “The Oral Talmud: Episode 9 - Turning Around”

[20] Neek’rat Ha’Tzur is the cleft in the rock through which Moses witnesses God in Exodus 33

[21] Hashgachah meaning Divine Providence or superstition (entry in the Jewish English Lexicon)

[22] Pirkei Avot 1:12 “Hillel used to say: be of the disciples of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving mankind and drawing them close to the Torah.”

[23] For Rabbi Meir studying with Rabbi Ishmael to gemar his gemara and then coming back to Rabbi Akiva to savar his svara, listen to “The Oral Talmud: Episode 15 - Svara’ing Your Svara (Eruvin 13a and Sotah 20a)”

[24] A Prozdor is a Vestibule/Corridor (for metaphorical example find Pirkei Avot 4:16)

[25] Ilana Kurshan's ELI Talk on her book “If All the Seas Were Ink” (on YouTube)

[26] Sefaria has a collection of source on Bitul Torah “Nullification of Torah”

[27] Kavod Ha’Brioy “Honouring the Creation” (Wikipedia entry)

[28] Rav Kahana hiding under Rav’s bed is Berakhot 62a

• Transcript

  DAN: This is The Oral Talmud - Episode 21: Dissecting Daf Yomi. Welcome to The Oral Talmud, a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. I’m Dan Libenson…

  BENAY: …and I’m Benay Lappe.

  DAN: The Oral Talmud is our weekly deep dive study partnership, in which we try to figure out how voices from the Talmud – voices from 1500 to 2000 years ago – can help us think in new ways about Judaism today. 

  Today’s episode features our seventh guest, Ilana Kurshan, author of the award-winning book “If All the Seas Were Ink: A Memoir.” In this book she reflects on her life through the lens of Daf Yomi, which literally means “the daily page” – it’s the practice of studying a whole page of Talmud each day – and by the way, by a “whole page,” most people would call it two pages because the Talmud numbers front and back as one page. Ilana Kurshan has worked in literary publishing both in New York and in Jerusalem as a translator and foreign rights agent, and as the books editor of Lilith Magazine. Since recording this interview in 2020, she has published another book, which is called, “Children of the Book: A Memoir of Reading Together” about raising kids and a love of books, especially Jewish books.

  Long-time listeners of The Oral Talmud may have noticed Benay’s aversion to Daf Yomi as an approach to studying Talmud. It’s obviously very different than the much slower pace we take on The Oral Talmud and the even slower pace of SVARA’s learning programs. At the time of this interview, I was studying Daf Yomi daily with my wife. By the way, nearly five years later, we still are – it takes about 7 and a half years to get through the entire Talmud one page a day – that is, two pages a day. Ilana Kurshan joins us to champion the faster-paced Daf Yomi approach—sharing why it matters to her and addressing questions about its benefits.

  For this episode, we’d like to remind listeners that every episode of the Oral Talmud exists as an unedited video recording from when we originally recorded starting in 2020. Ilana is a very animated guest, and you can watch the video version via the link in the show notes.

  Every episode of The Oral Talmud has a number of resources to support your learning and to share with your own study partners! If you’re using a podcast app to listen, you’ll find links to these resources in our show notes: First, to a Source Sheet on a website called Sefaria, where you can find pretty much any Jewish text in the original and in translation. On each episode’s Source Sheet we include the core Talmud texts we discuss, draw out the central questions of each episode, and share a link to the original video of our learning. 

  In the show notes of your podcast app, you’ll also find a link to this episode on The Oral Talmud’s website, where we post an edited transcript, and where you can make a donation to keep the show going, if you feel so moved. On both the Sefaria Source Sheet and The Oral Talmud website, you’ll find extensive footnotes for exploring our many references inside and outside of the Talmud. 

  And now, The Oral Talmud…

  DAN: I'm Dan Libenson, and I'm here as always with Benay Lappe and our special guest today, Ilana Kurshan, who is the author of the award-winning book, “If All The Seas Were Ink: A Memoir,” which is your memoir about your exp- Well, it's about so much. I probably can't do it justice, but it's the way that I think about it. It's, it's a memoir and a travelogue through the seven and a half year Daf Yomi cycle. 

  We've talked about it in passing on the show here and there. The idea is that this is a, a, a practice of, of actually more recent vintage than, than people I think know, and we should talk a little bit about that. But I think it was in the 1920s that people, particularly in the ultra Orthodox community, started with this idea that if everybody reads one page of Talmud, and that means a double-sided folio page. Uh, so in, in the, uh, you know, other worlds, it would be two pages. Uh, but we read, uh, uh, a page a day of Talmud. And, uh, and if you do that, then you can complete the whole Talmud in seven and a half years. 

  So, uh, a lot of people have been talking about that lately because the most recent cycle of Daf Yomi started, I think about eight months ago, uh, seven, eight months ago. And, uh, and a lot of people, for some reason I think we'll get into this a little bit, Ilana, started to do that, started to do that. All kinds of people and maybe I think, inspired by Benay and SVARA, you know, and, uh, uh, started doing this. And it's not ultra Orthodox people anymore, you know, I mean, it's of course them too. But, uh, all sorts of people have been doing it. Some of them have still stuck with it like me. And, uh, it's definitely a topic that's on a lot of people's minds. 

  And so we're really excited to have you today to talk about this phenomenon of Daf Yomi as part of our larger exploration of the Talmud, the content of the Talmud teaching, of the Talmud and, and so many other topics. So that was a long welcome, uh, Ilana. Welcome. Welcome, uh, thanks for being with us.

  ILANA: Thank you. Thank you. 

  DAN: So, um, I thought that maybe if we could start a little bit just to, uh, in your own words, just to give us a little bit of a sense, like, it's, when you describe your book to people, when you describe, or even before it was a book, when you described the project, how were you talking about it? That you, you started this Daf Yomi and, and how did that, you know, 

  I guess my question is, it, it, it ultimately, the book that you produced is an interweaving of your life and the literature that you love and various experiences that you had along the way. And this Seven and a half year cycle that you, that you entered into.

  And I suppose my question is, you know, did you plan all that in advance or was it just that you happened to be doing these different things and at some point it hit you that they were interwoven and this is a book? Or how did that project really come about? 

  ILANA: Um, certainly nothing was planned in advance. Um, I've always been a very active reader and a very passionate and devoted reader, um, which means in practice that I, I fill my margins when I read, um, all sorts of books. And often I'll choose books based on how wide the margins are, because I wanna know how much space I'm gonna have to, to write what I wanna write in the margins.

  Um, and that was certainly true of my, of my study of Talmud. Um, when I began learning, I was constantly taking notes on what I was learning. Some of it was just to remember what was the topic, because when you glance at a page of Gemara, you know, at, at a page of Talmud at first glance, right? You have no idea what the topic is.

  Um, although maybe, you know, the name of the tractate will be written on top. The name of the chapter is written on top, but the Talmud is so discursive, um, so full of digressions that, uh, that very often the, the, the, the, the topic of the. Chapter or the tractate has very little to do with what you are actually learning on that page. 

  So I was summarizing the topics under discussion. I was underlining phrases that spoke to me, um, you know, vocabulary lists in the margins. Um, and oftentimes because I was learning a page of Talmud and a day, I would be thinking about sort of connections between whatever it is that I was learning and whatever it is that was happening to me, 

  Even just now, Daniel, when you were talking, you said, um, you said, well, one page of Talmud, I guess it's one, but for us it's two. And immediately I thought in my head, you know, Shnayim SheHem Arbah, like the Talmud is always has this, um, um, take phrase that like, you know, one number is really a number, another number. So the laws of carrying on Shabbat are two that are four, whatever. So one that is- 

  So I'm always hearing those echoes. I'm always hearing echoes of, of what I'm learning. What I'm learning has always resonated with something else I'm learning or something happening in my life. So I would start writing in the margins, connections between whatever it was that was happening for me as I was, as I was learning that page.

  Um. And, um, and it's, I guess what, what I, this, you know, I was learning for many years and at some point as I was approaching the end of, of my first cycle of Daf Yomi, my first, that first seven and a half year cycle, um, a friend of mine said to me, oh, you know, how are you gonna celebrate your completion of the, of the Talmud?

  And I hadn't really thought about it, but, um, but then my friend said to me, you know, you've been writing so much, you should put all your writing together. Um, and very quickly it became clear to me that, you know, oh, I, I have a lot of writing and pretty much it's organized by tractate because that's how I learned. You learn. One, the one tractate after another. The, the Babylonian Talmud has 37 tractates. You learn them over the course of seven and a half years. They vary widely in length, but, um, but each one was sort of a, a, a, a unit with integrity. 

  Um, and so I began to put together my writings about each tractate, I'm really just for myself. I think at the time, if you had told me that maybe it would be published someday, I would've crawled, crawled under the table and never come out. I, I really wasn't thinking about, about sharing any of this. It was more just taking stock for myself of this journey. Um, so that's, that's how it all began.

  DAN: So do, can you talk a little bit about Daf Yomi as, as you experienced it, as you thought about it beforehand? I, I, I think there's this question. I mean, I guess we, we should put some of our cards on the table and this'll be part of our discussion. Benay, you can feel free to, if you want, if you think you, it would be helpful to, to put your cards on the table in your own voice. The way that I interpret you is that you're skeptical about it because you think that, um. You're not that, that, that, that's not really what the Talmud is about, is to really learn it at that pace. That the pace is, well, you should say what, what you think- 

  I, I think what I'll say actually is why I'm doing it. Um, and so for me it's, it's two reasons. One is that my wife actually, who has much less of a, of a lengthy Jewish education than I do. For some reason she heard about the Daf Yomi and it intrigued her, and she kind of wanted, wants to know kind of what's in the Talmud from a kind of, uh, an outsider's point. Like she had no clue basically what was in the Talmud. 

  For me I had like some clue, you know, we've studied a lot of Talmud in different ways and, and, and deeply, especially with you Benay. And, um, I think I have this sense that like, okay, now that I had that experience of studying deeply, I wanna, I wanna see everything that's in there just so that I kind of will know, you know? And, and I don't imagine that like, it's that deep of an experience. Um, um, you know, I, I just kind of wanna know, uh, just so that if anybody asks me something, you know, well, did you know that this is in the Talmud? I'd say, well, actually I did. You know? 

  So, um, that, that's kind of what I'm after. I think in a certain way. But Benay talk a little bit about your perspective on it. I, I think, 

  BENAY: okay, let's get a lot. Well, first, okay. First I wanna say, uh, Ilana that I thought your book was beautiful. Um, I really enjoyed your writing and the way you interwove, uh, stories in the Talmud with what you're experiencing. I just thought that was beautiful. So I, I wanna start with that. 

  Um, and then I wanna come clean about the fact that I'm for sure, uh, Daf Yomi curmudgeon. Um, and I have lots of, um, sort of objections to what I think happens for most people through Daf Yomi. 

  I'm a, a big fan of the Talmud. I'm in love with the Talmud, and I never want people to misunderstand it or come to dislike it or think that it's that which is icky and therefore, you know, see themselves as no longer being interested in it. That feels like, like bad, a bad sales practice.

  And at the end of the day, I, I fear that Daf Yomi is just a bad technique. It's a bad strategy for most people. I think there's some small number of people who have already had a different experience coming to know the Talmud and understanding what it really is and learning in. Um, you know, a style called B’iyun or like slowly and in depth, and then are able to supplement that with the approach of Daf Yomi, which is, um, you know, B’kiyut to kind of broad, thin, um, exposure to the content.

  Um. I have, but I have so many, um, particular objections. I, before our conversation today, I actually wrote them all out on several, several pieces of paper. So I'm not quite sure where to begin. Um, but I think one of, I don't know if I should take up a lot of time just putting them all out. 

  DAN: Let's actually start with, I just wanted to kind of, my goal is to put our cards on the table, but then let Ilana start because I, I'd love to hear that.

  ILANA: I just wanna say that I, I just wanna say I'm, I'm also in love with the Talmud. Um, I think that's, that's part of the reason why I, I can't stop doing Daf Yomi, even though I, I, I've, I've tried, um, a friend once said to me that Daf Yomi is sort of like the, the, the bad boyfriend that you really know You shouldn't, you should break up with, but you've just been together so long that you can't end the relationship. And I really identify with that. 

  Um, but, uh, but I mentioned before that, you know, that my, my, my engagement with the Talmud really began as sort of this, this, um, you know, or an experience of really writing heavily in the margins, which led to, to the writing of my book. Um, and I was just reminded as you were talking when you said you're in love with the Talmud.

  Um, one of my favorite poems is, um, “Marginalia” by Billy Collins. And it's about all, everything that people have scribbled in the margins over the years since really the advent of, of print. Um, but, but the poem ends with a line about, um, about someone, someone, someone's reading a used copy of the Catcher in the Rye, and the last line of the poem is, pardon the egg salad stains, but I'm in love. 

  And, um, I really identify with that because when I'm learning, I find it very hard to stop learning. Um, both, both in the moment, um, you know, when I can't take, literally can't take my eyes off the page, even if. Someone is really competing for my attention or my baby is about to fall off the bed. Um, this has happened. 

  Um, but I really, but also on a day to day, I, it's sort of like an addiction, a compulsion, and I can't stop. And if I'm eating egg salad, then there's egg salad in the Talmud. Um, and, and I say that sort of metaphorically too, that whatever it is I'm doing at the time in my life in the moment gets reflected, reflected in, in, in that learning.

  Um, so, so I, I, I would say that, um, you know, I'll, I'd be interested to hear your, I don't know, 95 Thesis or whatever, or your objections, but, um, but I, uh, but I, but, but for me too, it is, it is really a passionate relationship of love. So I think we're on the same page, at least there. May 

  DAN: I ask you, um, Ilana, like on, um, so. So, because I think this might be a way into also getting to some of Benay’s objections. 'cause like Benay, what you just said actually kind of spoke to me about that concern that people might fall out of love of the Talmud. Right. Because my experience so far, and we're I again, I think we're about eight months in, I don't quite remember. I know it was before COVID because I was still traveling January, 

  ILANA: January 4th I think, 

  DAN: I, because I was still traveling in the days that we were starting and that meant that we had to like do extra pages to, so that, you know, we could, I would, the days that I was away would be okay or vice versa.

  So, so I remember it was like pre COVID and then, you know, post COVID we're doing it every night, my wife and I. And um. You know what, what's interesting for me, you talked about the bad boyfriend. You know, for me it's like I'm starting to ponder this question of whether it's the, um, what I learned in economics class, the, the Concorde Fallacy, which is the idea of like throwing good money after bad. 'cause here we are in like the, the, um, the tractate of Eruvin. You know, we just finished Shabbat and before that it was Berakhot Blessings, you know, and those were like, okay, Shabbat was kind of getting a little like monotonous and now we're in this Eruvin and it's like, oh my God. It's like, ah, it's so boring every page, you know? 

  And I know there's really good stuff in Eruvin. So I keep telling my wife like, hold on, hold on. I know there's like really good stuff coming on page 13, and we're only, you know, we're on page nine, so it's coming soon, you know, and, um. So, so, but there's this part where, where it's like my wife, maybe 

  ILANA: the bad stuff too is Dvrei Elohim Hayyim 

  DAN: that's what I really wanna, you know, talk to you about a little is like, because I, I've been saying to my wife, you know, like, um, she, well she's been saying to me like, I think this, I think this a Eruvin might, might be, might be the end of us, you know, like, not the end of us, I mean the end of our experience with Daf Yomi, because she's like, I don't, I'm not sure how many more pages I can take of like discussing, you know, exactly where the cross beam that goes over an alley. You know what it has to be. And it's like just too much, you know? 

  And, and, and I think that, um, I, I think I would probably. I might stick with it if I were by myself because I could like just kind of read quickly over that part. 'cause I kind of know that it's not really I, and like I think that I take Benay to say like, you can't, yes you could. If you really were gonna spend weeks on, on some of those passages, you could find real meaning there. But it's really hard at the one day a page pace to take something that seems so boring and so monotonous and so, you know, kind of regulatory and find real meaning in it. So really the only thing you can do is kind of skip over it.

  I guess my question is, um. Whether when you were doing Daf Yomi and you were in a page like the first few pages of Eruvin, you know, with all this technical detail, for example, was it like that you just kind of read quickly over those, or, or were you able to kind of linger in the same way?

  ILANA: I always love the first few pages of a masechet because I feel like I'm entering a whole new world, um, with its terminology. Like it has a very different landscape every time you enter a new masechet and you have to get to learn all the vocabulary, the conceptual vocabulary of what is what, what are, what is, what is a lechi what is a kora, what are the different beams you have to put up to permit yourself to carry in an alley. 

  Um, I find this all I I I love sort of entering that new world and, and sort of seeing, like sometimes I, I, I oftentimes I'll learn, um, I'll listen to podcasts of Daf Yomi while I'm running and I have a, I try to change my running route between masech - between tractates. 'cause I remember what I'm learning. Based on where I am. So I love having sort of different background associations with what I'm learning. So I love entering a new masechet. 

  Um, but I will say, um, yes, there are definitely pages that I find, not, not only pages, but whole, you know, like sometimes even chapters right? Sugyot - Or whole long passages that extend over many pages that I find less interesting than others for sure. 

  But what I love about Daf Yomi is that you see everything in context. And when you come to those greatest hit sugyot that you've studied hundreds of times before, or you know, you've encountered, they're like on every source sheet and every shiur right, ever taught, right? When you see them in context, they take on a whole new meaning, right? And, and all of a sudden you say to yourself. Oh wow. Like I never understood what that source means in the context in which it appears. 

  Um, you know, um, I don't know. I remember like many, many times I studied the story about the man who goes to the prostitute and his tzitzit hit himself in the face. Right. You always encounter that story in like, greatest hits of the Talmud book. But, um, but I remember that when I actually learned that, um, that sugya and I believe it's in Menachot. Um, yeah, like there's a whole section before about, you know, when you're allowed to sell your tzitzit and there's this whole, there's this idea that you're not allowed to sell your tzitzit to a non-Jew mishum zona because of a prostitute. And it doesn't explain why. And I remember that actually appears the day- the page before and the day before in Daf Yomi that story of the Tzitzit and the Harlot. 

  And just suddenly I thought to myself, oh wow. So that's sort of setting the stage for what's about to happen. I never realized that that story happens there. That's not a very good example. But, um, but just, I, I guess what I'm trying to say is that seeing things in context for me, it's that sort of the surprise. So often I'll, I'll be, i'll, you know, I'm just learning through masechet Shabbat page by page, and all of a sudden I don't even notice that I'm on daf pey chet. And all of a sudden, Har Sinai is standing over my head like a bucket and I'm like, here it's, Har Sinai like a bucket, you know, I, but you just stumble on it and then you realize, oh, of course I'm on Shabbat 88. Of course, that's why. Right. Um, so some of it is that the pleasure of of, of seeing everything in its context.

  Um, um, and also I'll say like, for me, you know, because it's such a long-term commitment, you know, you have a rough day that doesn't it, I guess it just, it doesn't get me down. You have a rough week. It doesn't get me down. I sort of view Daf Yomi. It's kind of like a, it's like a marriage. Um, you're, you're in a marriage, you know? For the long term through thick and thin. You have good days, you have bad days, you have good periods, you have bad periods, you have rough patches. You make it up. You know, you don't always make it up the next day, but you make up, you know, maybe a few days later. Um, and that's the same with me. And I guess, I guess that the, the, the passages where something, where, where, where, where I find that the text speaks to me less, um, make me appreciate the passages that do speak to me all the more so. um, so, uh, 

  And I'll say I guess another, what, what helps me get through the rough passages. Um, I, on this now I'm in my, my, I guess I'm at the end of my second cycle now. Um, yeah, that's right. I'm at the end of my second cycle. And what has really helped me now is, um, on this cycle I've been learning through the Mishnayot - Um, before I learn every perek, I try to go through all the Mishnayot first. Um, the Mishna is the oldest layer of the Talmud. The Talmud is sort of a commentary on the Mishnah that includes the Mishnah.

  Um, and I have a, a pocket size, you know. Kehati Mishnayot that I carry with me every place, like everywhere I go. Um, I used to carry my Talmud volumes everywhere I go, but they're, they're kind of heavy. So, um, that doesn't work with my current lifestyle, but anyway. Um, but uh, but yeah, so I carry the mishnayot everywhere I go, whenever I have a, a free moment, I'll learn. I remember one time I was waiting in line at the airport for like, the security check and they asked me for my passport and I gave the mishna instead. 'cause it looks basically exactly the same, so it's always in my hand. 

  Um, and that really helps me just to stay rooted, um, not to lose sight of like the key concepts so that when that more technical aspects I get, I start to feel like I'm drowning. I, I always have the mishna as kind of like my, my, I don't know, my life raft, you know, or like my buoy, like the thing that I can hang onto when I feel like I'm sinking. I reach up and I, I can, you know, connect back to whatever mishnah we're on. Um, um, so that really helps me. Um, I don't know if I'm answering your question. 

  BENAY: Yeah, I, I'll, I'll jump in. I, I really appreciate what you're saying about context and I. I think that's a great point, and it is something that I feel, um, is missing in the way that I learn because I do tend to isolate my learning. When you're doing b’iyun, super, you know, in-depth learning, you tend not to, um, appreciate the context. And Dan, yours and my learning of, um, the sugya in Shabbat and Shabbat 54 B about one who has the possibility of challenging injustice, I, I, I had never learned, for example, the story about Rabbi Elazar’s Cow and how that shifted for me the understanding of that passage.

  So, um, not that I wanna keep points and not like this is a competition, but I wanna give you that point, Ilana, because, um, I agree with you completely that that's really important and can really change how you understand what this particular passage that you're interested is really doing. 

  Um, yeah, and what I'm also hearing you say is you using Daf Yomi as a spiritual practice, a spiritual practice of just doing something without stopping and having  

  ILANA: - a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I, I, I so much identify that it's the kind of thing where like, I, I, I, I relate to Daf Yomi, I think the way most people relate to their davening, like really, it's just something I have to get through before my day can start. Like, it's just, it's like, you know, you have the day has not, or brushing your teeth, davening, brushing your teeth, choose whatever, you know, whatever works for you, right? It's like, I can't start my day until I've learned a Daf of Talmud. It's a ritual, it's something. 

  And, and there are days when I get nothing out of it, but it doesn't matter. I just have to do it, right? It's like, it's like, you know, like, uh, the time, the time just has to pass, you know? And, and I have to get it done and, and have it under my belt and then I can begin my day. And the accumulation of all those sort of checking checks off the list, I think leaves me with something very meaningful and very satisfying.

  But what I'm left with is not necessarily the content of the Talmud. I think it's more, um, a sort of way in which that spiritual practice has shaped me as a discipline. Um, if that makes sense. 

  BENAY: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I get that. And, okay, so here come some more of my, uh, uh, uh, difficulties. Yeah. Yeah. Um, one is that. As you say, it isn't so much for the content, it's the, um, the ritual of doing it every day. And, and I think it's just so likely for people to misunderstand, um, that the, uh, that the content of the Talmud that they're able to get out of that day, um, is what the Talmud is about. And, but don't you, I regret that misunderstanding that happens. Yes, go ahead. 

  ILANA: No, but don't you think that, um, the likelihood of that happening is so much lower if you're going at a rapid pace because you're just seeing so much more?

  Like I, I actually, so I, I, I, we, I teach at The Conservative Yeshiva that, and I, I had this very strong objection to the way the teaching was done. It's a, it's a, it's an institution where students come for, for a year, um, to study usually sort of one year out of their lives and then go back to whatever it is they were doing.

  Um, and I, and often, you know, in the past, students would come and they'd learn b’iyun, and as you said, in depth, like, you know, one chapter of Gemara. And at the end of their year in Israel studying Talmud, people would ask them like, oh, so you're learning Talmud. What is the Talmud about? And they would say. Oh, um, it's about, uh, can you carry a dead body on Shabbat? That's what the Talmud is about. And I was like, how can you say that? So anyway, like, you know, as in like, that's what you've seen over the last 10 months. 

  But, so I started teaching now I, I, I have a, I started teaching a class last year. I called it An Aerial Tour of the Bavli. And the idea of the class was that, um, every week we learned One sugya from a masechet and we went through every masechet in order. And so by the end of the year, they had seen one sugya from every single masechet, like, you know, now. And I, I was the one of course who chose the sugyot. This was a lot of fun for me 'cause I got to teach, you know, my favorite passages. But at the same time, what it enabled me to do was to say to them like, let me give you sort of, you know, a bird's eye view, you know, of what are the types of issues that come up? What is the nature of this discourse? 'cause you're not just looking at a laundry list of like, these are the topics that come up, or these are the names of tractates. You're learning those sugyot in, in, you know, some degree of depth, but you're gaining such a breadth of knowledge as if you're really flying on an airplane over, you know, over over Talmud.  

  BENAY: Okay. Okay. Well lemme push back on you. I think both of those approaches share the exact same problem. They just differ in amount, not in kind, in other words. Um, both the, the, the student who said, I, I think what the Talmud is, is about whatever you said, you know, 

  ILANA: Carrying a dead body and Shabbat or whatever, 

  BENAY: whatever. I, I, I think that's missing, um, what the Talmud is really about because that person was taught in depth without a take, without a take that gets at what's really going on here. They, and they think what's going on are the details of the case. Your approach is the same thing. It's just lots of details of lots of cases, but both fundamentally miss what the Talmud is really about.

  The Talmud is no more about, in my opinion, um, a breadth of cases. Lots and lots of details any more than - the analogy that I've often made - Uuh, a case book in law school is about the specifics of the cases in that textbook. It's it, so for me, the, the Talmud is trying to do two things. It is trying to convey the DNA of how our tradition has and could and should in the future, sometimes radically reconfigure material that we've inherited, that we now recognize is inadequate. And the process of learning is a technology for shaping people into a certain kind of human being. A human being who holds their- 

  ILANA: I hundred percent agree with that. Yeah. 

  BENAY: Yeah. Okay. Except I'll bet we disagree at what exactly is the changing kind of stuff. For me, you don't get, you don't change because you've learned a bunch of stuff - that's a literacy model, which I think is fine if the stuff you're learning actually works in your life and in the world. But, uh, I don't think we're in that place in the world. And that's, and that's why I don't think knowing stuff really is transformative.

  ILANA: Um, I I, I, I'm not sure, well, I don't know. I'll say to you, I, I, I think a lot of what, a lot of what one is meant to get out of the study of Talmud is not, is not the content of the Talmud. 

  It's, um, it's an approach to strangeness. It's, um, you know, what do we do when we encounter something that we, we see, we think we fundamentally disagree with? How do we argue, um, how do we, how do we. Um, um, how do we listen? How do we listen before we speak? How do we understand the other? like, I, I, I, I see, um, a lot of what the engage the way in which the engagement of Talmud transforms the learner. 

  Yes. Some of it is that you, you become acquainted with material that you've never encountered before. For sure. But I, I definitely think it's so much more about the how, um, you know, the makhloket is the engine of the Talmud, right? How, how does, how does disagreement fuel the evolution of our tradition? What does it mean to have a tradition that, that that thrives on sort of, that friction, that tension, um, um, and, and, and, and how, how do we, how can we learn from the way the rabbis of the Talmud, um, relate to what came before them, um, and relate to each other? 

  I think that's a lot of what I get out of my learning, which is very different from, from saying it's, it's all about content.

  DAN: So I feel like I have a very, uh, Talmudic, uh, comment at this, at this moment because I, I'm actually loving this conversation for, for two reasons that are very much connected to the, to the tractate that we're currently studying. Eruvin, right? Which is number one, this is a little bit, uh, you know, out of order, but in a Talmudic way. Uh, Eruvin, page 13b is what Benay and I were just talking about on last week's show. This whole story about Hillel and Shammai disagreeing, the houses of Hillel and Shammai. Oh, 

  ILANA: oh. So that's also, that's also a classic example, right? Why do we decide the halakha like Hillel and not like Shammai, because Hillel always put Shammai first, right? I feel like that is such an important model for us. What does it mean when you disagree with someone, when before you jump in and say, I mean, I've probably done this to you Benay many times in our podcast, sort of, and vice, vice, 

  BENAY: vice versa. Vice versa, 

  ILANA: right? But what does it mean? Not to interrupt, right? Not to jump in or, you know, or, or to say, wait a second, but to say, wait. I hear what you're saying right near Inly, what you are saying. I hear you. You're saying X, Y, Z, and I see truth to X and I see truth to Y, I hear Z, but I disagree. Right? The, to have that humility and to be able to repeat the opinion you disagree with, or to place your rival first, right? I think that is such an important lesson that could radically transform political discourse and all discourse today. Right. That is such an important, I didn't actually, did not listen to that show that I would like to. Um, but, um, but, but, 

  But so much of what I take out of the argumentation and the Talmud is really values driven advice for how we are meant to, to, I would say, to relate to strangeness and to relate to the other, which are often one and the same thing.

  Um, and it's sort of an anti, um, uh, it's sort of the antithesis of like Facebook culture where, you know, you're always, you're always gravitating towards and surrounding yourself with, with, with opinions harmonious, with your own - consonant, with your own right. What does it mean to say, I am going to place myself around the stuff I disagree with, and I'm gonna let it rub up against me. I'm gonna let it chafe against me. I'm gonna let, I'm gonna let my skin, you know, wear away a little bit. Because, because I'm chafing against so much strangeness and then I'm gonna say, wow, I'm a different person because now my skin is chafed away. Like, that's what happens to me when I learn. 

  What does it mean? You know, what, what does it mean? What, what, what would it mean to really think that if you leave water uncovered overnight, you can't drink it because it means a snake might have drunk for whatever. Like all the weird things we find in the Talmud, you know?

  Um, and, and also, wait, there's one other thing I really wanted to say, which is just that, um, um. You know, not, the Talmud is not more than content. And, and when I have those boring dappim, part of what keeps me going, Dan, to get back to what you were saying, is I love the metaphors in the Talmud, and even just in these opening dappim of Eruvin, there was something we saw, I think yesterday, two days ago about, um, you know, um, mechol ha’kerem and karachat ha’kerem, that a vineyard has, um, like a, a dance around it and a bald spot. 

  And it's a metaphor for, you know, yeah, it's about planting mixed, you know, mixed, um, um, you know, seeds that aren't allowed to be planted together. But what if there's a certain space where there is no planting? Can you not plant in the middle? Well, if that empty space is in the middle, it's kind of like a bald spot in the vineyard. And if it's around the perimeter, it's sort of like the, you know, it's like a dancing and a circle around it. I love the images, I love the metaphors, and very often what, what stands out for me on a page are the, i'll, I'll not follow anything. I'll be completely lost in the halakhic back and forth, but I'll love a particular metaphor and that's what will say.

  I was reading today with my kids. I'm reading out loud to my kids, the Narnia series, and today in the car. We finished. Um, we don't have a car, but we were borrowing a car or whenever in the car we read to them. 

  DAN: No judgment. No judgment, 

  ILANA: no, no, no. Well, they beg for a movie and I start reading before they could, but yeah. Anyway, we don't, we're not in the car all that much, but when it happens, um, so we're in the car and I was reading them the very end since afternoon of Prince Caspian and at the very end of Prince Caspian, the four children, Lucy, Edmund, Susan and Peter reverse order. They go through this, um, sort of portal back into the, you know, where the book starts. They're waiting on a bench in England. To go to school and suddenly they're transported to Narnia and at the end of the book, they have to go back to like the bench at the train station to go to school. And the way they do it is all of a sudden these two posts spring up with a post on top. And I was reading this out loud in the car, and like tzurat ha’petach my husband and I was also my [??] were both like, which is like an image from Eruvin.

  But it was like, you know, when you're learning something, especially when, when everyone in your in the world is, you know, all that, there's a community of learners learning the same thing, it becomes your metaphor. And even though I can't tell you, could I tell you like, you know, when you need this kind of post and when you need that horizontal post, when you need a vertical post and when you need both, could I tell you all the details? Absolutely not. I cannot at the superficial level that I'm learning. But when I come to that scene in Narnia, you betcha. I'm gonna shout out tzurat ha’petach. And for me, that's worth it. Like that makes it worth it. The metaphors, the images that inform every aspect of what I'm doing and the rest of my life. Um. That's part of what, what has me hooked. 

  DAN: Well, I have two comments here. One, I wanna go back to what, what I was saying before about Eruvin, but before I do, I just wanna, it's so interesting to hear you just describe that because you know, you're an author and you, you know, I've known you since you were in college. Like you were, you were always a literary person. You were, uh, you know, reading poetry, you know, Rilke, I remember you walking in the streets of Cambridge reading Rilke, and I was like, who's Rilke? You know? And, um, and, and so it's fascinating to hear somebody who loves Rilke, you know, somebody who reads at that level and, and how you're taking out of Narnia. Like, this is how a person like that reads the Talmud. 

  Because I wish that, like, you know, like I wish that those metaphors came to me when I was reading. 'cause you know, I, I am being more of a law school trained kind of lawyer thinking person, right? I tend to be get excited when I find, oh, this is just like, you know, contract law. And this is just like constitutional law. So what's fascinating is that everybody potentially can find, you know. Something in there that is, that gets them excited, you know? And, and, and it's so interesting to to hear you describe that. 

  Uh, the, the one thing that I wanted to say about, about where we are in Eruvin and this whole idea of, um, I mean there's the idea of Hillel and Shammai, which is like, it's it, but what I wanna talk more about is like, um, uh, you know, like the happenstance of Daf Yomi, right? Because it, it just so happens that the first episode of, um, the Oral Talmud where we have a little bit of friction with our guest, you know, where we, where we're not all on the same page is the week after we've studied that, uh, that, that text. And I think that there's that, you know, where, where two people disagree and yet they're both the words of God, right? 

  And so I love the idea that these things just sort of happened to happen. And like when we studied that text that Benay was just talking about before, uh, from, uh, Tractate Shabbat about the, the, the failure to protest and the sin sort of coming on you, that was just around the time, just before I think the, the, um, you know, all the, all the, the George Floyd killing and all of. All of the things that were happening in terms of protesting, and it was like, you know, on, on the one hand you're kinda like, whoa, is this like, you know, uh, no accident, you know? 

  But the other thing that's really interesting to me in, in your book is that you actually were, were doing Daf Yomi, uh, I guess it wasn't off cycle, but you had started this cycle late, and so you kind of came around to it and, uh, later. So I guess it's not really what I was gonna say, but, but what, um. But what it's making me think about is just the, um, just just the, the, the oddity that in the, you know, eight months that I've been doing it, um, there have been many times when it just so happens that what was in today's Daf Yomi page is something that's kind of relevant to my experience of the world. Sometimes it's like world events, but sometimes it's just, you know, something that I've gone through and I'm sure if the cycle was, you know, six months off it would be the same. Right? So it's not, it's not that there's something magical happening, but there's some, there's something 

  ILANA: I think Yeah. 

  DAN: About this relationship. Right. And the only other thing that I wanted to just mention to Benay is that, um, about two or three days ago, uh, there was a scene in, uh, tractate Eruvin with Hillel and Shammai. Now I'm blanking on what it was exactly, but I took a lot of note. We, we, my wife and I take notes when we're, we have like a little notebook and we're like writing some notes while we're, while we're studying. 

  And, and I like wrote down this whole bunch of notes and she's asking me like, what are you writing? You know, because it's basically a boring page. And I'm like, no, no, no. There's this stuff about Hillel and Shammai and I know that that's coming. And, you know, six more pages that this part about Hillel and Shammai that Benay and I studied and I, I thought it was just kind of random and outta the blue, but actually there's this interesting thread of like the Hillel and Shammai going through this particular tractate, and like Ilana is saying, this particular tractate, which as we've talked about, happens to be about legal fictions, you know, and so it kind of makes sense that there would be this like interwoven thread in particularly that tractate that's about kind of these, these, the, the, the sort of, um, you know, legal argumentation.

  Whereas in like Masechet Berakhot for example, the Tractate about blessings, there was all this stuff about demons that hasn't come in again since then. So, you know, so, but it's sort of relevant because when you're make, you know, you're talking about blessings, you know, like there's, that, you're talking about like the kind of, the more mystical elements that are floating around, like the demons.

  So there, so what I am saying Benay is just that there is this element that I am getting out of it that like, when you kind of just cover the ground, you, you, there are things that you do see, you know, that you wouldn't see otherwise. So that's, that's where I'm kind of like struggling to hold. 

  BENAY: And I, okay. And I think all that is great, but I don't think that's what the Talmud is here for! It's like that's icing on the cake. There's no question that there are wonderful life lesson kind of aphorism stories. And I noticed, Ilana, that most of what you bring into your book comes from sort of the agadata, the narrative material in the Talmud, and that stuff is beautiful, no question about it. And learning lots of it can create lots of hooks for, you know, what your experience in life and, you know, allow for metaphors and.. 

  But, my worry is that, um, that becomes in the mind of the learner, what the Talmud is here for. And, and I don't think it is at all. And, um, I am a fan of icing. That's my favorite part of the cake. But, but, um, I actually don't want the cake to get missed. 

  Okay. Hard return. I, I wanna challenge you on another piece, and that is. Well, another one of my, 

  ILANA: something on the daf, like just recently about the Mizbe’ach Zahav had only the slight layer of zahav on top. Like only, and there was something very significant about how it's only a miracle happened. 'cause it was only a slight layer of gold. I don't remember. Uh, anyway, nevermind. But that's what comes to mind when you talk about the I gold, 

  DAN:  the best I can do from my Daf Yomi experience. Is that what you're saying sounds familiar. You know, I completely blanked on it too. 

  BENAY: Right, right. Okay. Here, here, here's, here's another one of my pet peeves about Daf Yomi. The way it usually looks. And, and my, my problem is for the people for whom it looks this way, not the very small number of people who are able to learn and see the cake layer.

  But for most people, um, they are per force in a very passive position. The teacher in front of the room, the teacher on the other side of the headphones. Or, you know, the call or the whatever who's doing the broadcast or the teaching is the person who really has a deep understanding of the text and the person, quote unquote, doing Daf Yomi is just watching that person rattle off and speak out a lot of material, leaving the recipient, leaving the person, quote unquote, doing Daf Yomi with the impression, oh, they're really smart. I could never do that. 

  ILANA: And also that the Talmud is leaving with them, with the misimpression. That the misapprehension, that Talmud is monological, when the Talmud is in fact a con- like, uh, very dialogical entirely conversation with many loose threads that never get picked up. And, and many open questions and many rough edges, which you, which get sort of smoothed over. Uh, so a hundred percent agree with you.  

  BENAY: Fair enough. So I'm interested in people learning the Talmud. In such a way that they see themselves as future teachers of it. And I don't know if Daf Yomi as a way of learning has ever produced through Daf Yomi a person who then becomes a person who has able to teach Daf Yomi.

  In other words, I don't think it's an empowering methodology or pedagogy, which really does what I think we need to be doing right now, which is creating, um, people who can see themselves as owners of the tradition rather than passive recipients. And, you know, I'll never be that. I I, what do you think of that?

  ILANA: Part of what I love about studying Talmud is that because it unfolds as a series of conversations, right? Among rabbis, as if, as if the tape recorder were left on in the Bet Midrash. And because those conversations happen as if miraculously, um, across time, um, you know, as in Rava in the fourth century response to something said by Hillel in the first century as if they were contemporaneous. And then, you know, the Talmud will give like what Hillel would have said to Rava, to Rava, right? Like, and you have that whole, uh, you know, sort of collapse of time and also collapse of space where rabbis in Bavel in Babylon and the land of Israel are, are engaging in dialogue, even if, even if separated right by, by great distance, um, by considerable distance.

  Um, part of what that discourse does is that when we are learning that text in the 21st century in Jerusalem, or you know, wherever we are, Chicago, I don't know anywhere in the world, wherever we are, right? When we're learning that text. We, it, it becomes almost like so easy, so natural to insert our voices into that conversation, right? 

  If the Talmud can imagine Moshe sitting in the back row of Rabbi Akiva’s bet midrash, then why can't the Talmud also imagine me sitting at - me! Ilana Kurshan sitting in the back row of Rabbi Akiva’s bet midrash, and all the strangeness. All the unfamiliarity, just as Moshe felt it. I feel it too, right? 

  Like, and that's part of what I love about this discourse, that you can't just be a backseat driver. You can't, even if you're just, even if you're learning in the way you're saying, we're the teacher's doing all the work and you're just listening, and maybe you're just listening while you're washing the dishes, but the nature of the discourse invites - there's so many Gaps. So many rough edges, so many places that don't quite fit together. You know, you can put like rectangular bricks if you're stacking them. There are no spaces in between. But when you're stacking like triangles, you're always gonna have those empty triangles. I don't, I don't know, sorry, I don't, I'm not giving good example. But, you know, as in like stacking these sort of weirdly shaped like irregular polygons, you know, let's say you stack them up and they don't all fit together and they're all these holes. 

  That's how the Talmud is. There're all these holes and you, the reader burrow into those holes. You find your nook, your cranny, your space, your, you know, neek’rat ha’tzur, or whatever. Like you find your little, your little space that's yours. And it's, it's the nature of the discourse that has you do that. I don't think it's possible to learn this text passively. 

  Like I, I often, I, the way I learn right now, I, I, I've gone through many, many, many different ways of learning from shiurim and podcasts, reading from Steinsaltz, whatever, over time, many, many different ways depending on, you know, am I in a library every day? Am I stuck at home because I'm in the middle of a pandemic every, whatever it is, you know?

  But, um, but the way I'm learning now, I, I learn, I learn with Steinsaltz. Um, I read through the Daf with Steinsaltz and Rashi and then, um, and then usually two weeks later, I'm sort of, there's a, or a week or to two Gap. I listen to a podcast a chazarah, like, just to review what I'm learning and I'll never, I listen to the podcast usually while I'm out and about either walking or jogging.

  And when I'm listening to the podcast, I'm always shouting things like I'm finishing sentences of the teacher because I've seen the daf before. Um, you know, you know, more than once at this point, I'm raising objections. I'm crying out, but wait a second. That doesn't, you know, it's like, it's a very active process. 

  Now I know it's not that way for everyone, and I agree with you that the na- Daf Yomi is not there to train teachers of Talmud. I don't think that Daf Yomi is the be all and end all of Talmud learning. I think it's a wonderful introduction. I think it's a wonderful first step. It's a wonderful way to 

  BENAY: Oh God! please let it not be an introduction or first step, it's a, a terrible first step and introduction.

  DAN: But that's what I, that's what I think is so interesting about what you're saying. Like, I mean, I like Ilana, you should finish, but I mean, I, I think that's what, that's what I was gonna like come in and, and talk about. But I wanna have Ilana finish and I have a comment. 

  BENAY: Sorry, Ilana, I interrupted you. Please go ahead

  ILANA: Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no. I find it very, very helpful to see the lay of the land before you, before you. It also helps you figure out like, you know, where am I gonna, which well am I gonna dig deeper, you know, where, where do I wanna set down my roots? What's out there and where, you know, um, um, you know, and, and I would say, Dan, in response to what you said before about sort of how, how un how somewhat, you know, it's kind of uncanny how, you know, in the eight months you've been doing Daf Yomi, there've been so many overlaps, you know, what's happening in the world, what's happening on the Daf.

  Um, you know, look, I, I agree with you. It would happened no matter what we were learning, I think it's sort of like, you know. When you, uh, you look up at the night sky, everyone sees the same stars, but not everyone sees the same constellations. You know, you, you, we all connect the dots in different ways. Uh, but, but it's a na, it's a basic human tendency where, you know, we're all storytellers. That's what it is to be human, right. It's, it comes very naturally to us to connect those dots to, to, to impute causality, even if there is no causality. Um, and to impute, you know, to, to assume a narrative or construct a narrative.

  Um, there, I used to listen to this. When I first started learning Daf Yomi, there were no, there weren't, uh, I don't think there were any sort of a liberal podcast. Like you wanted to listen to a shiur about Daf Yomi. All I could find in English, um, all I could find were, were rabbis from Yeshiva University teaching. So that's what I listened to. And I remember the rabbi who taught, used to always say, um, you know, he would, he would often find connections. You know, he'd say, oh, well look at this. We're learning this on Erev Purim, and he would always have this line, “Coincidence? Hashgachah? you decide!” who would say that all the time. You know, is this a coincidence or is it divine providence? You know? And, um, and I love that, you know, like, you know, we don't know

  Is it coincidence? Is it divine providence? But a lot of it is, it's what we see. It's our, the active role that we are taking as listeners in, in making meaning we have to be the meaning makers. When you learn Daf Yomi to say, when you learn the Talmud according to a, a predetermined schedule that you have not decided, but that becomes sort of like the soundtrack for your life or the backdrop for your life, um, that forces you to be active and to make meaning.

  Um, and so whether or not it, you know, it, it, it, it makes you into a teacher of Talmud? You know, I, I agree with you, Benay. I don't think it does. Um, but I do think it demands a lot more, um, active participation than you seem to think. 

  DAN: I mean, I'm, I'm not trying to like just be, you know, of the disciples of Aaron and bring a, a peacemaker here, but I, I, um, you know, that's a line from the Talmud, uh, from, Pirkei Avot, but I, um, uh, just for, just, uh, but I, um, a little Talmud inside humor here, but the, um, but I, I'm not, I am trying to do that, but I'm also not trying, like, I actually find myself like, like really in the position of saying, you know, these are both the words of the living God or the living words of God. You know, we were even debating over which is the right translation of that, that statement last week. 

  But the, um, but the, the, it it, it feels like, I guess, I think Benay like my question, uh, for you is like, in part, it's this question of like, how would you feel about, um, a weekly Daf as opposed to a daily Daf?

  I'm not, that's not an actual question, but I'm saying like, is the, is the, is the concern that you have sort of, um, primarily that the pace of a daily, you know, really two pages is too fast to really get into depth and, and it's really that, that your concern is that if one doesn't experience the Talmud with great depth and clearly Ilana has got a Daf Yomi approach of that, that gets to great depth, right? 'cause she's studying, she's studying, and then listening to a podcast a week later or whatever. You know, there's a lot to it. So if everybody was doing that, now I'm not suggesting that that's the daily, that's too much for everyone. 

  But if it was weekly, would it be okay because then at least you would get the depth or is the objection, and I know it's all of the above, but I mean like, it's the driving objection that, um, however slow your pace of study may be, if your aim is to cover ground as opposed to, um, you know, sort of explore the elements of the Talmud that a, a teacher, for example, has really identified as the ones that best convey this larger project of the Talmud, which you can then take tho those, those, um, that what you've learned about how the, that the process works. And then you could go read any part of the Talmud you wanted, but you would be reading it the right way because you would've already absorbed this process. You know, is it, is it, is it that you fear that that will never happen if one takes a daf yomi approach? 

  And then I guess my question is basically if somebody already studied with SVARA, like, you know, by the way, we've, we, we studied this not too long ago that this story of Rabbi Meir who goes to study with Rabbi Akiva, and he doesn't understand anything he is talking about. And he first goes to study with Rabbi Ishmael, you know, and he learns, you know, gemar gemara, he, he learn whatever that means. He learns his learning, you know, and then he comes back to Rabbi Akiva and he savars svara, you know, he's able to, to. To reach it at this higher level. 

  Now we have a debate for the sake of heaven here. I think about whether that Daf Yomi is the right way to start, or, or SVARA way is the way to start. But whichever one you, you say, I'm asking in a way both of you, like, um, is it the case? Would you, would you agree that it's the case that once you've absorbed that Gemara, then it's okay to go for your SVARA at the, the other one, you know, and, and or is it 

  ILANA: especially since, especially since the nature of Talmud, is that You know, sort of every page of Talmud assumes that you already know every other page of Talmud, So there's really, there's, there's really no way to begin learning Talmud until you first learn the entire Talmud, right? So it's all a warmup, right? Um, as in, in the first, the first time you learn everything, it's all just a warmup. Um, it's all just a, a, a Prozdor leading, leading to another, another realm. You know, we could say it's all just a corridor. 

  DAN: Benay? How do you, what do you take? Where do you take my question?

  BENAY: Well, I, I really appreciate your question, Dan, because you've helped me identify that it's not just the speed, because, and this gets back to my critique of your critique, Ilana, of the student who spent a whole semester on one sugya and then thinks that's what the Talmud’s about.

  Um, while learning quickly doesn't afford one, the ability, I think, to really understand the meta Of the content and what I think the stama, the redactor is really trying to convey, which for me is always without fail, a, a methodology for change. Um, it's, it's not only that speed doesn't do that. You can learn Talmud as slowly as you want, but without that lens, you're still going to be simply mining for the, you're gonna be reading the surface content just slowly.

  Um, and it isn't simply depth. It's not, it's the. It's like the icing and the cake are actually two completely different things. It's not like you, you know, if you go slowly, you understand the, the depth of the flavors of the icing. No, there's something underneath that surface content, which is for me, what the Talmud is really here to bring. That can't be accessed, No, No matter how slowly you go, if you're not actually reading for that. 

  Certainly it's impossible to get at when I think when you are learning in a sort of Daf Yomi passive way. What, what thing I wanna ask? Oh, Ilana, you're disagreeing with me. 

  ILANA: I mean, I'm just thinking about, I, I'm just thinking back to my encounter with the opening dappim of Eruvin and you know, yes, it's true. I could have been totally caught up in all the details of you know, the different types of legal fictions that we're constructing and what they look like and their dimensions. 

  But like what stayed with me from the opening dappim of Eruvin was that Um, I, I think the opening daf may 1st or second daf, right? The rabbis talk about how everything they know about how you construct these, these, these, uh, you know, I don't have to these, um, markers to show that you're, that you can carry within an alley. The way they do this, it's all based on the temple. It's all based on the door between the Ulam and the Heichal, and that really got me thinking. And as I was wonder, I said, you know, it's so interesting how, for the rabbis, like the whole Talmud, I think is like this post-traumatic stress response to the Korban, right? Like the temple was destroyed. Oh my gosh. Like, and, and, and 

  I think that the Ruined Temple lurks on the backdrop of every page of Talmud. And it's not incidental that Eruvin starts with, you know, where did they learn this from? Where did they learn it from? From the Heichal, and there's a machloket did they learn it from the Ulam or from the Heichal you know, from which part of the temple. But not everyone thinks they learn it from the temple. That too. 

  But there's this sense that, right? Like every structure in the Talmud Is, is is a ruined temple or is a rebuilt temple? And like, all I'm saying is that that metaphorical level isn't, I don't think I, I don't think it's fair to assume that it's lost on the learner. 

  BENAY: Yeah. But I, but I, I, I so disagree with how you are reading what the rabbis are doing in the Talmud about the temple. That I think it's a perfect example of our dispute here, because I think while they may be using the language of despair and loss and Oh, that we don't have a temple, and oh, one day, that's not what if you, if you, if you, if you are taking them sort of at their word and not reading for the meta message, you're precisely falling into the hole. That, that I think is, is so tragic, 

  Which is that I don't think that that, that that tragedy at all is what the rabbis are, are talking about. I don't think they're upset that the temple is no longer there. I think as, as Dan says, they're creating a kind of process of mourning for people to be able to let go of that, which they're thrilled is no longer here.

  And, and that's, that's a, a take that I think you miss when, when you accept the surface content. As if that that's what they're trying to do. I think you're missing the meta, 

  DAN: but, but Benay is, my question is, is that, that you and Ilana potentially do, or, or maybe don't, you know, but I mean, is that, would that be the topic of another show?

  You know, the question of like, what were the rabbi, what was the rabbi's, uh, real agenda, you know, that's in itself an interesting question. 

  ILANA: What was their relationship to the Korban? Right? 

  DAN: But to what extent is that a coterminous conversation to the question of whether, you know, uh, breadth or depth is the best way to study Talmud? You know, because I mean, there's certainly people who study Talmud in depth, who accept that more. Uh, you know, I, I wouldn't call it surface level. I would say the, the, the more public presentation of, of the Talmud by the rabbis and say that that's actually what they thought. And there's some people who study in depth like you that have a different take, you know? But that's different from the daily versus the, isn't it? 

  BENAY: Right. Well, that's, that's why. Depth doesn't matter if you don't have a take, if you don't have a lens on what is really going on, which I believe is wholly other than the specifics of the content material, then no matter how slowly you learn it, you're still gonna miss the point. And you're still,  

  ILANA: but is it better to start with a teacher telling you, you know, top down, like, you know, this is what's happening and now we're gonna look at a suya that demonstrates that. Or to say, read the whole Talmud and try to figure out as you're going along, what's happening. And that's gonna shift and it's gonna shift based on what you're reading and where you are and where you're standing vis-a-vis the text. Like I think they're just this different approaches to, to, to, to extracting meaning. 

  DAN: Ilana. Ilana, let me ask you this 'cause we're also running outta time, but like I, I'm, this is where my law, my law law, former law professor, you know, lawyer hat comes in and I remember, I think I mentioned this to Benay before, but like I was talking to, uh, one of our, uh, one of my friends that you probably know him also, um, but he was a law professor and I said that we're starting this Daf Yomi thing. And he said, he said, I don't know why, why would you do that? Because like, I'm a law professor and I don't like read the whole, you know, federal reports, you know, all the, all the cases he is, you know, 

  So I guess my question there is like, um, you know, we do have this impulse by the way, which I share with you. Like, I'm excited about the, I don't know if I'm gonna make it, but I'm excited about the, I. And only a, a a a short six years and three months, or, yeah, I'm sorry, six years and nine months more from now. I'm gonna know everything that was in the Talmud. You know? So like, I'm very excited about it. 

  And at the same time, I, I'm also kind of conscious of this critique that might say, you know what? That's, that's not really the way that lawyers study law. You know, the way that lawyers study law is that there is a teacher, a law professor, right? Who, who, who maybe has studied more broadly or maybe has studied from their teacher, and there are dangers to this, right? Because what if your teacher gets it wrong? But, but that there is some way where the teacher says, well here's, you know, I've, I've presented a set of selections for you that in some ways really gets at what I believe is the fundamental, you know, and, and in a conservative law school, you're gonna get a different take than in a very liberal law school, right?

  And so, like, there's, there's definitely like, uh, how, you know, how do we resolve all that? Or do you, is it, do you think that like, because the Talmud is shorter than the federal reports, like that, there is this capability of doing it and therefore it's, it's, it's a good thing to do and it's more achievable. How do you look at that? 

  ILANA: Me? 

  DAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

  ILANA: I mean, I don't, I don't read, I don't read the Talmud as a book of law. I don't relate to the Talmud as a book of law. Um, I, I, I, I, I don't particularly enjoy studying halakha. I've studied very little halakha. Um, for me, the Talmud is about. How we argue, it's about conversations. Um, it's about, uh, it's about the relationship between law and narrative. It's about what law can do versus what narrative can do. Um, and, uh, and I, I am coming to it looking for very different things. 

  I also think that, you know, there are times in life that lend themselves to the kind of, um, deep engagement with the text that Benay is describing. And there are times in life when I think that's simply not possible. Um, I think if it weren't for Daf Yomi, I, I, you know, it's funny, I actually was having a conversation yesterday with a friend who's a law professor and um, I have two friends or married, they're both law professors and we were visiting whatever, we're at a pool yesterday where kids are on vacation and they were telling me about a paper they're writing.

  And the topic of the paper was, um, was, um, are you allowed to download things off the internet? Um, and, and not pay for them if they're copyrighted or something. Anyway, the answer apparently of court, the law says that if you would pay for it, um, then you're, you are not allowed to download it for free. And if you wouldn't download it, unless it were, uh, and if, and if you wouldn't download it unless it were free, then you're allowed to download it for free.

  And I was thinking about that, this, and I thought to myself, well, wow, you know, if it weren't for Daf Yomi, there's no way I would be learning Talmud right now at this point in my life. Like, absolutely no way at a time when like, all my kids are home. There's no school to like, you know, and, and, and we don't know if school's even gonna start again for sure. And then, you know, I get maybe like, you know, two hours to myself once everyone's asleep. And at those that point I'm exhausted. Like, would I ever, ever be doing Daf Yomi? No! But because I have this kind of addiction that's been going on for 15 years, like, no way I'm gonna get divorced now from the Talmud, like I'm kind of stuck with this, right?

  And I, I, I think, you know, I guess what I'm saying is part of what we have to consider is what is the alternative? Like, would you be doing this otherwise? And I think what Daf Yomi becomes for a lot of people is you sort of commit to something and at a time when you otherwise would have no relationship with the Talmud, you have some relationship.

  Now, Benay, you may say that that relationship is so detrimental that better to have no relationship. But, um, but I to that would say that I truly believe that the more people who study Talmud, the more faces of the Talmud we reveal. And if we only leave the tal, if we leave the Talmud only to people who have the time to put in like Seven or eight hours a day, or even two or three hours a day sitting in the Yeshiva learning, then the, then, you know, we're gonna seriously limit the, the, uh, the range of insights we are gaining into the Talmud and, and, and we're not gonna see all those 70 Faces of Torah. Um, so, so I, I, I, I, I think we, I guess what I'm saying, I think we really need to think about sort of what is the alternative.

  I'm very grateful that I have Daf Yomi in my life because it is very clear to me that I would not be learning Talmud right now, if not for it. 

  BENAY: Yeah. I have an alternative for you. It's called, it's a yeshiva called SVARA, and I want you to come, but, okay. Wait, Dan, do have one more minute? 

  DAN: Sure. 

  BENAY: Okay. 

  DAN: It's okay with me if Ilana has another minute.

  BENAY: Sure. Okay. Um, I wanna pick on, pick up on something that you say in the book, and you also talked about it in your ELI Talk, which is really beautiful. You say, with each passing day, if I learned Daf Yomi, I wouldn't be just one day older. I'd be one day wiser and. I wanna push back on, on the question, or I just wanna ask, do you feel like it's made you wiser?

  And does learning Daf Yomi actually convey wisdom or does it convey a certain amount of material which makes you feel connected and it gives you sort of a, a daily practice and blah, blah, blah? And by the way, in, in this question, I wanna acknowledge that my deepest, darkest fear about my own work is that I'm not a thousand percent sure that I'm right that the way we learn Talmud is in fact formative and shaping of the kind of human being that I contend it is. I hope it is, I hope it shapes people into this certain kind of human being that I think the tradition wants us to be, you know, more profoundly empathic, more connected to others, more able to tolerate contradiction in paradox. And so, and you know, to, to hold our truths lightly and be more crash, flex. Um, and so that's my own question for myself. And although we may not have time to answer, that's also my ultimate question for you. 

  Um, in what, in, in what sense has it, if it has, um, made you wiser, how does that kind of learning make one wiser?

  ILANA: Um, I do think it has made me wiser. Um, I think it's made me wiser in the sense that, um, you know, I, I, I said before, it's Talmud is sort of like the soundtrack for my life, but maybe a better image is, you know, sort of like the music that's always playing in the background. Um, and often quite literally, because I'm always listening to podcasts anytime I'm walking and when my phone rings, I seriously have to think to myself like, should I answer this call? Like, is this Bitul Torah? I shouldn't say that. No one will ever call me again. But, uh, but anyway, um, you know, um, let alone Kavod Ha’Brio. 

  But anyway, um, but uh, but I think in a way it's sort of like the beat against which my life is syncopated, you know? That is to say, um, everything that happens in life, sort of, that happens to me over the course of the day exists in potential relation to the daf that I'm learning. It's like, it's like that beat that's underlying everything. It's sort of setting the rhythm. And because I have that underlying rhythm the other things that happen to me that might just be like unrelated notes become sort of harmonies. I'm not musical. So maybe this is a really bad metaphor. I don't know. 

  BENAY: No, I hear you. I, I, I get it. I, I really hear that. 

  ILANA: But it, it's creating a music, uh, it's creating a music and that music is, is, is deepening and enriching. Um, and, and more than it's made me wiser, I wanna say. It's definitely made me happier. 

  Um, and I think that some of that is really me. I'm really my temperament. But, um, I'm a person who has to get something done, have to, has to feel like I'm getting things done. And often we will make to-do lists just for the sake of being able to cross things off. I have, I'm a real to-do list person. 

  Um, and you know, the, the nature of my life right now as a parent of, of an infant and, and, and several young children who need a lot of attention, um, all the time, um. We took the kids to the park today and my husband said like, okay, we might even have time to talk if they all play. And like every single kid needed every single, both of us at every single moment. And it was like a joke, like we took 'em to the park thinking, whatever. 

  Like there's never, kids need a lot all the time and it's very hard to feel like you ever able to use your head. You know, when you're, when you. In the trenches with kids and making this commitment to learn to daf every day means that at the end of every day, I can say, well, I know that I am fundamentally, first and foremost a person who loves words and loves text. And if I can make a space for that every day, a thick space, I'm not, it's not just like reading, you know, like whatever novel I'm reading. 'cause I do that too, but this is about a sacred devotional practice. Because I don't think -

  For me, the Talmud is different from reading, from reading anything else. Mainly because of what you said, because of what the Talmud is that it's, I, I forget how you put it, but it was very beautiful about how it's the DNA of our tradition. It's, it sort of teaches us how our tradition has evolved and kind of evolved. I, I agree with all of that. Um, and sort of, and being in a daily conversation with that text, um, enables me to feel like I'm a part of something much larger than myself. That I'm a part of a, I'm a part of a transgenerational conversation. That I have a community that's, that's, that's, I I have interlocutors who are, who are older than age nine. You know, I, and for me that's, that, that's very, very valuable. Both, both intellectually and spiritually. Um. Yeah. 

  DAN: Well, Ilana, I just really wanna thank you for like taking the an hour plus of, of the two to three, uh, you know, spare hours that you have in the evening, uh, to spend with us. And this is great. 

  I, I have to say that like my experience of this conversation is, is of a piece with what I was trying to describe with my experience of doing Daf Yomi, which is like, wow, this conversation happened just the right week. You know, and just, just, uh, after we did that Hill and Shammai text from Eruvin 13b and I wanted to talk a little bit more with Benay about it next week. And so it's just perfect and, um, and. And, and I'm so grateful to you and, and Benay, I think that I, I next one of, uh, not necessarily next, but I'd like to find a text where the student kind of, uh, misbehaves and doesn't listen to the teacher because I kind of feel like I'm doing that a little bit and I'm proud of it. 

  You know, like I, I kind of, um, you know, I love that I'm doing this like, uh, I mean, I'm, I'm always like a bit of a contrarian, but I, I like that I'm also, uh, not listening to you a hundred percent 'cause I usually do listen to you. So, um, so I just really wanna thank both. I just, 

  BENAY: it won't be hard to find one of those stories, right, Ilana?

  DAN: Well, I know there's the one where the rabbi snuck under the bed, you know, but, um, I don't know. That's not quite the same. But, um, anyway, I, I just wanna thank you, Ilana, for, for really just a fantastic, I mean, I'm so glad this, this, uh, we have this conversation. I, I actually think that it's, so, I hope that when people are watching this conversation, that they actually experience that, that text of Hilel and Shammai disagreeing and, and, and all being the words of God. Because I think we all believe in that, and it's just amazing. 

  I feel, I love the idea that we hit and have three people who, who love studying Talmud and who kind of have slightly different takes on it or, or substantially different takes on how to do it. And, and, and that we can sort of talk about it together. So I hope we'll talk again. I, I am really so grateful for this conversation. 

  ILANA: Thank you so much. Thank you.

  BENAY: Ilana, Thank you so much. This was so wonderful. 

  ILANA: Likewise. Thank you. 

  DAN: Thanks so much for joining our chevruta today! We hope you’ve enjoyed learning with us… and with the Talmud. You can find links to the source sheets for all episodes in the show notes and on our website at oraltalmud.com. Your support helps keep Oral Talmud going. You can find a link on the website to contribute. We’d also love to hear from you! Email us with any questions, comments, or thoughts at hello@oraltalmud.com. Please, share your Oral Talmud with us – we’re so excited to learn from you. The Oral Talmud is a joint project of SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva and Judaism Unbound, two organizations that are dedicated to making Jewish texts and ideas more accessible for everyone. We are especially grateful to Sefaria for an incredible platform that makes the Talmud available to everyone. It’s free at sefaria.org. And we are grateful to SVARA-nik Ezra Furman for composing and performing The Oral Talmud’s musical theme. The Oral Talmud is produced by Joey Taylor, with help from Olivia Devorah Tucker, and with financial support from Lippman Kanfer Foundation for Living Torah. Thanks so much for listening–and with that, this has been the Oral Talmud. See ya next time.

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